Coyote ARC on ebay

An ARC of COYOTE DREAMS is up for sale on eBay.

I inevitably find myself torn on what to do about this. Really what I want to do is contact the seller and explain in small words that what they’re doing is illegal, as should be obvious by the words NOT FOR SALE emblazoned across the book’s cover, but that I’m willing to overlook it so long as they provide me with a reciept stating they’ve donated the amount of money they sell the book for, including shipping and handling, to a charity, preferably of my choice.

50 thoughts on “Coyote ARC on ebay

  1. All it takes is one mention of “If you do not do _________ by this and such time, I will be turning this over to my attorney for further action.”

    But yeah, I wouldn’t let them get away with it.

  2. My combo answer is: Contact them with the charity suggestion, and if they don’t comply, sick your agent on them. :D

    And I like to click boxes.

  3. I’ve been told that some of the game books I’ve worked on, including the Bestiary of Krynn which I wrote half of, have appeared on P2P networks like Kazaa and Gnutella. Somebody bought a copy and scanned it in and started to distribute it. I never know what to think of that kind of blatant pseudo-generosity as a form of copyright infringement. It’s like, thanks for buying my book, dude, but just because it’s yours now doesn’t mean you can freaking share it with a million unwashed P2P thieves.

  4. Don’t contact them. Look at their items for sale, all they are doing is selling ARCs. Better just have your agent contact Ebay directly.

  5. The book is unread…

    Putz didn’t even bother to read it before putting it up?
    I say cap him.

  6. Looking at the guy’s listings, it looks like he has a line on ARCs (I guess on a mailing list or something?) and just flips them onto eBay immediately after getting them.

    I wonder if it might be worth it to find out how he’s getting them (I imagine the publisher keeps records of who they sent things to?) and get his supply line shut down…

    *snugs*

  7. I clicked on the “Other” box.

    I clicked Comments on the poll.

    I’d tell your publisher, or ask to notify them. If this guy receives ARCs to review, and sells them en masse, the publishers who sent him those ARCs should be told. If he’s getting them from another reviewer, or a bookstore, or wherever, let the publishers track it down. Assuming they’re interested enough, which may be a discussion for another day.

    I especially like it when the folks selling these things post pics that show the “Uncorrected Proof–Not for Sale” warning to its best advantage.

  8. while i like the idea of telling him to donate it to charity, i’d also drop a note to ebay.

    let ebay handle it rather than your lawyers. cheaper for you and likely to have a bigger effect on the seller since they’ll deal with all the listings.

  9. It’s your copyright. If you don’t start protecting it now, you could have bigger issues farther into the future. As has been said above, forward the information to your publisher. If it were me, I would embrace the power of and, and also contact eBay to get it taken down ASAP. It is unlikely that the seller, considering his other wares, will pay any attention to attempts by you to get him to take it down.

  10. As a multi-faceted person, I recommend a multi-faceted approach.

    1) Report to eBay. The “not for sale” thing will get it taken down fairly quickly, I think. They seem fussy about such carryings-on.
    2) Let the agentess make the “Hey, you don’t care that [so-and-so] is auctioning off your ARCs, do you?” call. More businessy and less using of your valuable corresponding with me time.
    3) Come to think of it, you might consider having She-Who-Earns-Her-10% contact eBay for bonus inciting fear of potential legal action.
    4) Stop being flattered by it. This isn’t a misguided fan trying to share the love, this is a punk trying to hustle a few extra bucks.
    5) Then move on. The most likely customer is an impatient fan who would buy a final copy anyway.

  11. contact ebay. period. once the sale has gone through there is nothing that you will be able to do. even though the charity option is a good one, you will have no control over the end results. ebay, on the other hand, is rabid about intellectual property rights and they will pull the auction.

  12. I agree with the ‘contact ebay’ folks. I clicked other for that, and I clicked to tell your agent. From the cheap seats of people who would love to be honored with an ARC and never, ever are… I don’t think that this guy, who has an in on them and is taking serious advantage of it, is ‘flattering’ at all.

  13. I put the clickity boxes, but honestly, I’d at least contact E-bay. Not sure if you fall within the ‘members community’ they seem to be referring to, but it can’t hurt.

  14. I’d check with your agent.

    My perspective is probably weird; my dad used to own a company that did pretty much nothing but print ARCs. (Well, galley proofs back then, but yeah.) To me, they feel like collector’s items — people are not buying ’em to avoid paying full price, they’re buying ’em because they think they’re going to be worth money someday. But I see Powell’s or whoever selling ARCs and it’s just another facet of the collector market to me.

    Of course, in this case it’s probably just catering to people who wanna read the book early. And I only have one random perspective — would know for sure.

  15. It IS flattering, so sure, be flattered. And maybe tell your agent that you’d be willing to give the proceeds to charity, etc, if it comes to that. But definitely do something about it because as much as it might just be a fan, it might also be someone who gets ARCs from many books and makes a lot off them from people who don’t know any better, and might not even know it isn’t legal.

  16. What would Jim Butcher do in such a situation?

    He’d look the other way.

    Option #2 is right, here. It is flattering. It’s a sign of a strong and healthy fan-base. Some fan out there is going to be made very, very happy by being able to get their hands on this. It creates advance buzz and increases demand.

    Don’t be an MPAA-esque “curse you for downloading my music that you really really like” person. Stay awesome, accessible, and friendly with your fans. Let the *corporate folks* take care of problems like this and stay above the fray.

    That’s why I checked the first three boxes.

  17. Actually, I don’t care in the least if people *buy* them, or have them. It ‘s that I object to people *selling* them. That may or may not make sense, but the really relevant bit is that I do not get one red cent for ARCs sold: that all goes into the pocket of the seller, and that’s what pisses me off.

    I was less snitty before I looked to see that this guy’s entire stock is ARCs. Sometimes I see ARCs that’ve gone up but it’s just one that somebody got ahold of, and that doesn’t annoy me so much. Seeing that this guy’s got 40+ ARCs for sale, that pisses me off.

  18. I don’t care what Jim would do. :)

    My bitch is not about people getting early copies of the book. That, as far as I’m concerned, is perfectly cool. It’s the SOB who’s making a pretty profit off every one of those free ARCs that he’s selling that gets my panties in a bunch. I don’t even especially care that *I’m* not making my ninety-seven cents or whatever: it’s that he’s got more than forty books listed, none of which are legally for sale, and a whole bunch of other writers are getting screwed out of their ninety-seven cents.

  19. Well, you’re determined to be angry, and I can’t get in the way of that.

    I will simply say: don’t wrestle with a pig — you only get dirty, and the pig likes it.

  20. Majestically ignore it. People are interested in your work, and your name’s out one more place in the world. Besides, then you don’t look like a jerk. :D

  21. You know, I said contact them yourself, as well as letting arcaedia go after them, but really, I agree with the others who said talk to your publisher. They have a legal department. Let them use it.

  22. I’ve spent a lot of time contemplating this sort of thing from all angles. Generally, I disapprove of selling ARCs for profit, and as a reviewer, I find it professionally galling that other people getting ARCs are selling them, rather than, say, reading the book and reviewing it. But this is a complex and annoying thing with no easy answer, and every author is going to be a little different as to their comfort level.

    That said… if you’re not happy with the situation, do as the others have suggested and sic someone official on the seller. eBay has been pretty good about yanking ARC auctions in the past if someone complains. And y’know, I don’t exactly object out of principle to having this person’s supply line shut down if they’re just using it to make a profit.

    I’m sure what I wanted to say has been mangled in translation, but… :) Good luck with whatever actions you take.

  23. I’m totally in agreement with this. This guy is selling these wrongly.

  24. Yeah, I went and looked after reading this, and that’s what I’ve done.

  25. Report them.

    Both to eBay and to your lawyers/publishers.

    What they are doing is illegal, blatantly. And if they are doing it to that list of authors, then, no one will be safe.

  26. This is why she has an agent. :) She keeps her hands clean and the pig gets taken to the butchers. No pun intended.

  27. You know, I think people who review books — for which they mostly do not get paid except in free books — view selling the books off to the local used bookstore or wherever as sort of a perk that they get because they don’t get paid. I mean, I never got paid, though I was never a big time reviewer either. Also, I can tell you that people get on lists and get books to review in which they have no interest whatsoever. What, then, are they supposed to do with them? I’m well acquainted with the person who receives and distributes the books sent to the Mythopoeic Society’s newsletter for review. It’s a publication that reviews mythic fantasy, you know? But this does not stop publishers from sending science fiction, romance, and mysteries to the PO box. You really think we should just toss them?

    MKK

  28. Give them to the library. Auction them for charity. Give them to a local shelter. Put ’em on bookcrossing. There are *lots* of choices that don’t involve making a profit off something that says, in big letters, NOT FOR SALE, on its cover. (Actually, I’m not sure I much care about trading books in to used bookstores for credit, except used bookstores shouldn’t be selling ’em, either, you know?)

  29. I debated making this anonymous. So about ARCs. I don’t sell them. I do buy them. As a matter of conscience and the fact that I buy them because I like the author and am buying them early because I want to read the thing, I almost always buy the published version as well. The most I ever paid for an ARC ($80, for a Lois Bujold) I have a hardcover, a trade paper, an ebook, and two mass-market paperbacks.

    Issue one. The legal/illegal question. My understanding is that most ARCs are received unsolicited. In the US at least, the law is that it doesn’t matter what you put on the item, it belongs to the recipient. (IANAL). This came about because of the common practice of sending people stuff and telling them they had to return them or couldn’t use them unless they sent a donation. Publishers put lot of things on the cover. “the best book you will ever read” doesn’t make it so.

    Second issue. I know a number of people who get ARCs, and some publishers are pretty indiscriminate in what they start sending.

    The purpose of ARCs is to get them out there and get them read and reviewed. One functionality of selling the ARCs is a market mechanism to get them to the people who do want them and opposed to heaving them in the trash. The recourse the publishers have is to stop sending ARCs to people who sell them, but some ARC resellers include some pretty well known reviewer names that it is unlikely they are going to do that to.

    Major reviewers may get literally hundreds of ARCs and review 10 or 20. And the “super books” like Harry Potter – to the extent that those do go out it’s worth noting that they don’t go out through the regular ARC mechanisms – they don’t go out without a specific agreement being signed for that specific book. There’s probably a rough correspondence between that and getting a strict on-sale date. But that happens when most stores are getting a box or more of just that one book.

    A sub element is that smaller reviewers and web reviewers don’t get little or no income from the review site. They may sell some or all of the stuff that they get, even books they review, and it may still be supporting the purpose of the ARC – to get the book out there. it costs money and time to maintain the sites.

    I would note that Lois Bujold and at least some major authors regard ARCs distribution this way as benign – Lois even makes signed ARCs available from her own supply and donates the proceeds to the SFWA medical fund, and her ARCs have gone for as much as $600 or $700.

    Now, all that said, ebay will remove ARCs prepublication, if contacted. So if it bothers you, do it.

    But the ARCs are printed to get them distributed. To the extent that you believe that they are substituting for copies that would bring you a royalty, you may have a point. To the extent that the orginal recipient would otherwise trash them, I think you are barking up the wrong tree.

  30. This guy isn’t exactly on moral high ground, but I don’t think it’s worth getting worked up over one lost sale.

  31. I’m coming late to this thread, but just wanted to send commiserations. That does rather suck. :( And for what it’s worth, it sounds to me like having contacting eBay was the correct thing to do. Hope it can be resolved as painlessly as possible.

  32. Woof. Tough one. I voted to sick Arcadia on them, as that is what’s proper. After all, the jerk didn’t even READ it! Now, as an avid (but NOT rabid) fan, I’d absolutely love to purchase this and read it myself. Even better would be to get on one of the mysterious lists that net you the free ARCs to enjoy and share. However, on the principle of the matter, I won’t. Do you think we should all go out and hit the “report this item” button, to alert Ebay? On a more positive note, I have seen ARC’s show up at one of my local book re-sellers – I’m hoping they were donated….now I have to go and find out!
    BTW, thanks for the list of upcomings, even though some of the dates made me feel quite faint. I have the utmost admiration for you authors, as I know quite well I could never write even a short story (poetry I’m quite good at, if I may say so myself)…I just wish the writing/publishing thing was quicker! Of course, it probably doesn’t help that I read quite fast.

  33. My group performed a 3 hour set at McGinley’s Pub for their St. Paddy’s Day celebration.

    I was *still* winding down at 3am. :-D

  34. I have one ARC in my collection, “Darwin’s Children” by Greg Bear, and I would NEVER consider selling it.
    not only because it says ‘not for sale’ on the front cover, but also because it’s not the same as the finished edition, which I also have. (Got them both thanks to being on the Del-Rey mailing list :-)
    There’s also the ‘bragging rights’ of owning it.
    (A couple of my friends are fans of him, and they’re almost green with envy)

    There are typos in the book that has been fixed in the final and frankly, Greg Bear doesn’t deserve that more people see them…
    (Note also the text on the back ‘These are unrevised proofs. Please do not quote for publication until you check your copy against the finished book’ )

  35. Do you think we should all go out and hit the “report this item” button, to alert Ebay?

    No, that’s not necessary. Thanks for the offer, though. :)

    Of course, it probably doesn’t help that I read quite fast.

    *laugh* It’s a little dismaying how much faster it is to read a book than write one…

  36. I’ll take your word that it may technically be legal to sell ARCs, but it is absolutely clear that the publisher is incurring an expense with the “in good faith” expectation that the recipient will not pass along the ARC for profit. Hence “NOT FOR SALE”. It doesn’t say “NOT FOR PASSING ALONG GRATIS TO SOMEONE WHO CARES”. Legal, perhaps, but not at all honorable.

    The small reviewer bit is touching and all, but it is also irrelevant. If one’s reviewing isn’t lucrative enough, it is not the fault of the publisher or author nor is it their responsibility to assist. A small reviewer who would like to sell on the ARC for fundraising has the ethical responsibility to ask permission. The only reason to not ask is if the reviewer felt certain that the publisher would not approve–thus reinforcing that the seller is fully aware that he or she is violating the trust the publisher extended by sending the ARC.

    Oh, and Bujold auctioning off signed copies of her own work from her own stock for charity… How is that in any way comparable to the profiteering and abrogation of trust which is the topic?

    Just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean it’s RIGHT.

  37. All right, let us not turn this into a flame war. I don’t want to have to close comments ’cause we all can’t get along. :)

  38. I was curious as to what exactly notices were on Advance Reading Copies about the expectations of what would be done with them. Since I have a lot of ARCs I went to look and see if there was any other sort of commentary on expectations, etc.

    The first thing I noticed is that none of the Tor ARCs have any sort of “Not for Sale” or “Not for Resale” on them.

    This is just a point of information, although I have my own opinion as to why.

    The other ones I could readily lay hands on didn’t have anything beyond the bare statement.

  39. Good – it’s just what I was going to say (so glad I read thru the comments first – and what a lot of comments! This is really getting to be an issue, seemingly…)

  40. Trust me, anyone who reads this who’s published something, it’s been bittorrented. (I know this for a fact for several of you whom I know personally, as that sort of thing tends to leap out at me.) (No, I’m not going to tell you what I use bittorrent for, because it’s none of your business and entirely beside the point. I love you all and I buy your books, dammit.) (Sorry, feel crappy today. And highly, highly parenthetical.)

    Uh. Where was I? Oh. Yeah. The theory most of the sharers (is that a word?) operate under — at least nominally — is that people will check out a freebie scanned copy and if they think it’s cool, they’ll buy it, whereas otherwise they wouldn’t (presumably the people who’ve always bought things without seeing a freebie copy first are still buying them.) I don’t know that I endorse this wholeheartedly, and it certainly says nothing about the legal issues, but I figured it’s worth noting.

    Seriously, I am on drugs today. Sorry about the rambling.

  41. taken to the butchers. No pun intended.

    Thank you for that.
    (may I have another)

  42. I understand the objection, I really do. I think it nettles you that someone else profits more than the actual loss of revenue to yourself for each sale.

    You can certainly pursue cutting off this person’s supply of ARCs by informing publishers, and their ability to sell them by informing ebay. But I think you shouldn’t, because you can do that every day and not do jack to the trade in ARCs. As others have observed, fans and others like them as collectables. Say Ebay were to actually ban them, then the’d appear on craigslist.

    I think you should consider it an unfortunate cost of doing business and enjoy the fact that you can write, and even better; get paid for it. As my Grandmother used to say “I should have such problems!”

  43. As others have suggested, I would say contact e-bay, your agent, and the publishers of ALL the books he is selling the ARCs for. Especially if they are predominately as-yet-unpublished books.

    I don’t think it is bad to sell the ARCs after the book is published, since they are a potential collector’s item. I DO think it is bad to sell it before the official copy is published. That is NOT acceptable behavior. Bad e-bay seller, no Twinkie!

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